Ideas

[Shax]

PvP is drastically different than full-blown player-killing being allowed.
I don't support player-killing.

Uhm, player killing... ok, we are at war, we are enemies! I can't kill you because everyone is butt hurt over it...

You can kill anyone willing to fight you. That's what challenges exist for. You're the one who's butt-hurt over this rule being in place. If you want to see more pvp outside of challenges, sign the blood scroll. Promote more warriors signing the blood scrolll.

Sure complaints are always brought up about someone being killed outside of challenges, but take that up to your city leaders about how bad you don't want to be killed because they aren't there to help you or whatever.

I've been around long enough to know that people who get jumped don't usually deserve it. Sure, there are people who talk a lot of trash in the game, and when they get issued a challenge, they refuse to fight. That's when "exceptions" come into play, because some people REALLY have death coming to them for the way they act. Note that is says, "jumping will be treated as a serious offense and is likely to bring divine reprisal"...this means, because jumping is an inter-city problem, that it is usually left up to the Divine to be the judges in such circumstances, because they are not "biased", per se.

"Attacking outside of the above should be extremely rare (the exception, not
the rule, as mentioned in Readbb Main 86), and needs to have a very strong
in-character reason attached to it. In the absence of such a reason, jumping
will be treated as a serious offence and is likely to bring divine reprisals.
Bullying will not be tolerated either."

I completely agree with the rules we already have on player-killing, other than the fact that it isn't being monitored or controlled enough, and a lot of people can easily misconstrue a "good reason" for player-killing. The reason we have challenges is so people can REFUSE TO FIGHT YOU. Not everyone wishes to fight. Even if you are a sworn enemy of theirs.

This is just an example, so let's not take it personally.
Carllen worms his way into Golgonath and starts killing npcs. A warning is issued to him- either someone makes him aware if he doesn't leave, we will attack or kill him; or in my opinion, we start attacking him because he should be smart enough to know if he's in an enemy city killing their guards, that there will be repurcussions. Equally, he has every right to attack anyone who has -ALREADY- attacked him while he is on this...not so covert guard killing spree. Let the player-killing begin!

Now- someone in an enemy city changes their title. Members from our city start picking on that player for their title. Saying it's stupid...annoying. Instead of returning the favour and saying, well, you're stupid and annoying right now, incase you didn't notice, they refer to the "bullies" as children. Calling you, Roeshak, a 'boy'. You don't think Roeshak is a "boy". That player obviously does. So you issue said player a challenge...which they do not accept. What do you do? This does not in my mind qualify as a "very strong in-character reason" to jump that player. This qualifies as a very strong reason to let the situation go, no matter how bull-headed you might feel at the time for someone referring to your player as a "boy". If you are going to talk trash, expect the favour to be returned. And don't expect your city-mates to side with you simply because, "Ohhh...but we're at war with them, and HE/SHE is the enemy."

This would also give the crafter types more of a job so their opinions would need to be processed as well. Lots to say here but I'm going to stop to hear a response from whomever.

More of a job....? You think Crafter types need more...work. I think Crafter types need to work more at their current jobs. Or, if you have nothing to do, you're obviously doing it wrong.

As a Crafter, I spend the majority of my time being involved with Guild duties, running and stocking my shops, trading, farming, questing, or completing bounties. Because of the trades I chose, that sometimes means hours in the fields ploughing and sowing seeds, or spending time wandering around picking copious amounts of berries. More work.

More work... You're right. It would be more work. Because whenever I left my city, no guard in tow, and usually not even my armour...because it's stupid...to wear armour while berry-picking, let's be honest...I'd have to be worried about someone getting on a kick to jump me. For whatever they felt like?
"Gee, sorry, I picked all the berries in Barthon wood and you're too late, but you can curb stomp me now so I'll never do it again. Thanks!"

I don't see Player Killing making people want to play more. I see it making people want to play less.

[roeshak]

Ok, you took all of that out of proportion. Seriously.
Let me rephrase if that's how people are going to react.
We are at war, say nazi's vs americans here, if you were in each other's territory or even around each other during this time of war they wouldn't be so civil. The whole thing with Kiros isn't what I was bringing up so.... I'm going to leave that there for my own personal sake. Full blown player killing really isn't an issue, I'm just sick and tired of being in a war that no one gives a shit about. No one puts forth the effort including you (understanding this is mainly because you have to use a phone most of the time) but everyone is so hell bent that dying is a big issue. Learn to bash again for gods sakes. I'm not upset about any of this, its a damn idea thread so that was my idea if you want to shoot it down that's fine. My issue is that war's tend to get over rated in akanbar, we end up going to war and people usually will forget what we are even at war for, so then we are just 'natural enemies'. The war we are in now was started by people who are dormant, one of which is Elysian now... I'm just in support of wars being a more intense thing so they end more quickly.

[roeshak]

Now- someone in an enemy city changes their title. Members from our city start picking on that player for their title. Saying it's stupid...annoying. Instead of returning the favour and saying, well, you're stupid and annoying right now, incase you didn't notice, they refer to the "bullies" as children. Calling you, Roeshak, a 'boy'. You don't think Roeshak is a "boy". That player obviously does. So you issue said player a challenge...which they do not accept. What do you do? This does not in my mind qualify as a "very strong in-character reason" to jump that player. This qualifies as a very strong reason to let the situation go, no matter how bull-headed you might feel at the time for someone referring to your player as a "boy". If you are going to talk trash, expect the favour to be returned. And don't expect your city-mates to side with you simply because, "Ohhh...but we're at war with them, and HE/SHE is the enemy."

And about all this, I don't even care about your opinion here. In my time in Akanbar I've seen people die for less. Did I not in fact apologize after the fact? DID I NOT OFFER MY OWN HEAD? I have a lot more to say here... but that's crap, the entire game has because 'oh my guh, I lost muh level' if I want to pick at someone its not being a bully. I talked to Kiros OOC about the whole situation, neither of us thought of it as a big deal after it happened. Stop trying to defend everyone, it was simply an idea. Perhaps the bloodscroll would be a good idea.

[Jaethor]

And about all this, I don't even care about your opinion here.

The idea thread is for constructive criticism only. I am willing to hear all opinions so I can make an educated decision. Don't demean someone's opinion simply because they disagree with you. Discuss it and disprove what they say- explain why you're against what they say.

Also, for all parties involved, realize that some people might like PK a bit, some people might not. Some people might like fishing, some people might think it's the dumbest addition I've ever made. Opinions differ.

Concerning jumping and rule breaking, report stuff if you want it dealt with. It might not always be ruled in your favour, but we're not going to punish you for reporting things. Typically, I'm not admin, but looks like I am for now.

[Detahn]

I'm still in favor of taking the number of active guards down at city gates to increase the likelihood of a war being won with the players instead of killing ourselves to move armies around. I mean, sure it would make things easier but with all the restrictions that are currently placed on raiding and warfare in general it does make things a bit excessive. In my entire time in akanbar we've never had enough people that could pull of a gate raid, not to mention the guards that back up peoples gates as well.

The only thing I can say is that, it doesn't seem realistic enough to have a group of lets say '8-10' people take down an entire city.. I mean, even the battle of Troy, it wasn't the few people who went into the city that won that war, it was the fact that they were able to open the gates from the inside to let the REAL army in. Making it easier to let players raid a city and in turn 'win the war' sounds far fetched.

I will on the other hand agree with what you said about restrictions. There is just too much to worry about while in war, having to watch your step and not do something for fear of obliteration. I mean, war is chaotic if anything... I do believe war should have rules but how it is now is pretty straight forward. march march march march attack lose go home.... march march march etc etc etc. I love the idea of siege weapons(not black power) like war ladders or battering rams. This is more realistic, when a city chooses to bring down a gate, they don't bring in men wielding swords to chop at a gate, flaming arrows maybe...

[Detahn]

More of a job....? You think Crafter types need more...work. I think Crafter types need to work more at their current jobs. Or, if you have nothing to do, you're obviously doing it wrong.

As a Crafter, I spend the majority of my time being involved with Guild duties, running and stocking my shops, trading, farming, questing, or completing bounties. Because of the trades I chose, that sometimes means hours in the fields ploughing and sowing seeds, or spending time wandering around picking copious amounts of berries. More work.

More work... You're right. It would be more work. Because whenever I left my city, no guard in tow, and usually not even my armour...because it's stupid...to wear armour while berry-picking, let's be honest...I'd have to be worried about someone getting on a kick to jump me. For whatever they felt like?
"Gee, sorry, I picked all the berries in Barthon wood and you're too late, but you can curb stomp me now so I'll never do it again. Thanks!"

I don't see Player Killing making people want to play more. I see it making people want to play less.

You go girl!

[roeshak]

Yeah, your life is so hard.

The idea for something built by a city to help with warfare instead of just guards and mages, catapults maybe?
Don't see a point in ladders.

[Shax]

I love the idea of siege weapons(not black power) like war ladders or battering rams. This is more realistic, when a city chooses to bring down a gate, they don't bring in men wielding swords to chop at a gate, flaming arrows maybe...

I'd like to see something like a battering ram, as well. Maybe so many people would have to "man" it and then
ram the gates? Fighters would be needed to defend the people operating the ram, and each hit of the ram would cause damage to the gate.

Maybe set it so that the ram can only be used once every so many minutes...I imagine the shock of hitting the gate and having to build up the strength to draw it back and repeat would take that long. Defenders would have to pick off the people manning the ram to stop it, while another attacker could take the place of any killed man. The ram would still only be able to work so long after the final person manned it.

It would probably take a small group to operate and protect one while the gate assault was happening, so I can't see any city having the time or manpower to take down a gate in one sitting without tiring. The defenders would have time to demolish and rebuild a new gate, then, though I can't imagine that would be something financially viable over a long enough period of time.

On another note-
Going off of Detahn's send a city npc into an enemy city idea:
I like the concept. Maybe they could be enlisted as a spy, and then sent to the directed city...? They could cost more to hire, and could be ordered to attack, but would function essentially as only a spy. You could order spy report, and they could give you a brief summary of people or guards in the location, along with the exits. You would have to order them from afar, though, so I'm not sure how that would be accomplished. Perhaps send order spy# report/attack/return? Setting them to "attack" would make them start attacking any player who enters or is in their location, and the player would then have to kill them. Of course something in their description would need to hint that a guard or mage wasn't one of your own, just so the spies could be "found out" by citizens before the spy attacks. Maybe when they move to attack they could throw off their disguise, and would return to their normal appearance... People would need to be more vigilant, and always on the watch for potential spies. Though there would probably need to be a limit on the number of spies you could send to each city.

I don't see much need to jail the npc, as it'd be simpler to just kill them. Though I do wish we got more use out of our jails.

Shame we can't take prisoners of war. -chuckle-

On a side note, is there any chance we'll ever be able to order mercenary guards to attack things? Maybe I can hire him to not only defend me, but to attack, and I just have to pay him more?

[Malic]

If inter-city conflict was as easy to instigate as forum flame wars I'd be happy man.

Seriously though, I do in essence agree that war with another city state should be a little more dramatic.

Currently the only fesible was to pursue war is raiding. Armies are intermittantly buggy (I'd still like to know where my 200 troops are that died to a 16 man army), gate raids are impossible with the current population, sea warfare its a outlandishly expensive enterprise and even if you destroy a habour I'd wager it could be repaired for less than it cost to repair your ship after the battle. Wagon raiding was a great idea, but is just too hard to actually do successfully without exploiting them via melee skills.
Tower raiding can be countered with the raided city being able to enlist faster than their guards die, even by enlisting maybe once a week.
I know Lord Jaethor has said that many of these issues are already known, so in the mean time I wonder if we can come up with a few ideas of how to give war a bit more flavour and depth.
One issue I see is that we're somewhat limited in what we can physically do. We can raid towers, and then its a 14hr wait unless you want to chance the patrols while disguising. So I'd like to see some more warfare like actions that could be taken while towers are resetting.

My earlier suggestion of a artillery troop type gave me another idea. What if the city engineers could build real catapults, like a wagon. You attach your horse to it and drag it to the enemy gates and let loose. Obviously you'd need a lot of limiting factors, like its only good for 3 shots before breaking down, it would have to be slow moving, and, like army commanding, the person leading the catapult would be open to pk.

Perhaps some sort of sea raiding. I know from trade logs that "a ship sailed into the harbour" and bought some goods. (usually the stuff we don't want to sell) Maybe you could run a blockade near a city that you were at war with and steal those goods? Although that seems to be effecting the merchant sailors more than the city you're at war with. Maybe someone can improve on this idea?

Ransacking the villages. If you're at war city that has an alliance with a village, you can close the trade centre of the village for a month by hiring bandits to trash the comm centre. Costs gold. Actually, you can do this with your own troops, so forget this idea.

I was thinking of salting the enemy farm fields, but that might be a bit harsh on the farmers.

Hiring paid assassins (npc ones) to kill off single a serf/clansman/citizen. As an alternitive to the sending in spys idea.

Realm wide events where the prize is a magic turnip that makes extra enlistables spawn on your streets. (takes about 6 rl months to enlist an army that has a chance at a gate assault. Too long!)

Mana powered death orbs that can be thrown into static guard location that have a chance of killing of said guards. Thus softening defences to make gate raiding less suicidal.

A city function option of mutially consenting open pk between warring cities that runs for a specific period of time.


Alright, my ideas are getting more erratic. Time to stop.

I also note that I've mentioned several things that Lord Jaethor requested we don't. I hope you realise I intended it only as a overview of the current state and a lead in to the basis of my idea's. Not as a suggestion that they be fixed.

[Dimetrius]

Idea: Remove the operative noun POLE in regards to fishing rods.

It makes a mess of the wagon quest, by some magical means.

[Jaethor]

Greetings,

Fishing was already discussed by the AACTM and is on the edge of being implemented.

Done, you handsome man.

Also, a great idea...multi keyword help files...such as for the one I just posted.

Done. My word, you all were snarky back then. I had to sift through quite a few posts from then to find this one.
If you cannot find one you think should be included, shoot Me a message.

Signed,
Jaethor

[Dimetrius]

Done. My word, you all were snarky back then.

Just for that one, or...?

[David]

To sort of comment on the topic of raiding/whatnot.


I always hated how raiding felt like a chore and had no true reward knowing as a Captain/Militant leader that I could easily enlist NPCS at a way faster rate than I could possibly lose them.

Raiding is the one aspect that a city can come together and use every guild to their specific needs. A Pyromancer firesnake to a Runesmith patterns....each guild had a specific use in a raid.


I do not think open PK would fit well within Akanbar's mold. It is a silly concept that often leads to championing all day long and for a side that is outnumbered or lesser geared/skilled than their opponent it becomes a pointless login. I personally used to be on the opposite side of that pk spectrum as a 14 year old kid just starting muds.....I was playing a mud where I was outnumbered by my opponent often 5 v 1. It was extremely displeasing and wasn't until I made a few friends that I started to gain power and able to level enough to fend off those jumps. Needless to say, this guy is not ever a fan of opening up PK in Akanbar due to I know how I would roleplay my character and it would not be a pretty scene for those involved on the opposing side. My point really is.....not everyone is going to stay around like I did to get hammered day in and day out.

However, I do feel that the playerkilling laws on marching/raiding are a bit too tight. Especially the laws regarding marching armies upon a city/village/your armies. There is currently no time restriction to when a person issues a march and cannot enter the Bulletin. The last war that was won vs Golgonath was done a lot by BB marching and it was one of the least most memorable things in my time with Akanbar. If you are marching an army, I do feel like you should always be watching your back(Perhaps this can have something to do with the amount of troops one is marching?)

Just my two cents......For the most part, I agree with what Shax was saying earlier. Also noting that Malic had some interesting ideas as well(Also wondering where those 200 some troops are as well )


Edit:

Regarding tower raiding, I do feel like the city that is being raided should have more options made ready for them to fend off an attack, but this would be directly in relation to making raiding more important to every day life. I would not issue a raid knowing that the enemy I am about to face can fire a catapult that takes down the entire groups health by a set % per full health every 5-10 seconds. I would need some sort of motivation driving me need to raid or at least every other day.....as in a reduced recruiting rate while the towers are down for the city that has just been raided.

[Seig]

While this idea is not related to inter-city warfare, I think it would be an interesting, if not fanciful, PvP idea.

I think it would be interesting to have an arena or something of the like that happens every so often, where the people who enter get about 2-3 minutes to prepare and choose around 5 skills. Any 5 already made Akanbar skills, and have them unsurpassed. Then have all the people fight to the death for a small prize.

This could help younger people learn how to fight, and could actually give them a fighting chance instead of them having to go against an all unsurpassed person and gaining no knowledge other than "I getz my ass beats in tew swings." It would also allow some of us older people to try out different combinations of skills, and sort of help us fulfill our what-if fantasies. For me personally, this would curb my guild hopping tendencies, as I tend to "hop guilds" so I can have something different to do fighting-wise. Let me know what you guys think, or if this idea has already been proposed and I just missed it somewhere.

[Malic]

There is an arena event rather similiar to what you are suggesting. You take on the predefined role of a champion from history, each with their own specilised skills. I've only been around once when this event was on, I was still a novice.

I have a hazy recollection of there being a help file about the event too.