Is conflict wanted?

[Joscelin]

Oi, you're not the only one. Ysallyra lost their entire army to the gates (I swear to this day I still question whoever was the chieftain behind that maneuver). There is only one city with an army larger than two cities combined now. And besides, even when it was a tag team, skilled raiders from Golg made life for other cities a living hell to compensate for being clearly outnumbered in army might. Shoulda kept it up during the occupations to force a treaty instead of a surrender. Guerrilla warfare was really successful during that war. Woulda made an excellent rp and story: No surrender, no retreat, there is only resistance, and a glorious fight to the death.

[Xinia]

and death. and death. and death. and death....

[Dimetrius]

Woulda made an excellent rp and story: No surrender, no retreat, there is only resistance, and a glorious fight to the death.

Would've been better if there was more rp behind it all though, instead of people just trying to inflate their e-peens.

Taa.

[roran]

Yeah, role-play in a war would be interesting, fighting over SOMETHING for once.





"Golgonians are poopy!" says one Elysian child.
A Golgonian overhears, slaughters the child, then declares war.
Elysians soon have occupation of Golgonath.
A treaty is signed.
REPEAT STORY


This isn't meant to be offensive, it's just a joke.

[Joscelin]

Noo... Dim is right. There wasn't much or any rp in the last war. Haha. Everyone was just throwin' insults at each other and raiding each other whenever the opportunity arises. However, it's still rewarding for those who do make the attempt. They get recognized by the Gods for some merit.

[Ashrabia]

I went through and read all the posts in this thread. Being on both sides of these events, I think I have a unique perspective... Please bare with me as I try to explain my thoughts.

When I first came to these lands, I found myself wanting more conflict. I sought out the walls of Elysium. A few years passed and Aaridan was offered a position within Golgonath by Lord Bralnok no less. This angered me, pissed me off. I asked myself, "How could he just leave? A Senator of Elysium succumbs to the will of Lord Bralnok?" I vowed that day that I would best the mighty Aaridan in battle and I would do all I could to finish the war.

This war, was not yet started though. Armies were not marched, I was not even a Senator at this point. Some more time passed and I was elected as Senator. Not a great fighter, though still learning. Many of my fellow Senators were very capable and experienced characters. However, none of them, nor myself, had a great deal of knowledge in regards to marching.

Asking questions to both Ysallyrian leaders such as Filch, and ancient leaders of Elysium; Magnum, Ichiban, Detahn... I found myself in a position to put an end to a war. Looking back at it now, I admit that the only reason why I was determined to fight this war, was because I was 'supposed' to. Natural enemies and so on.

The following I think is well known to all who took part in it. However, before the actual occupation. Ashrabia left Elysium and joined Golgonath.

Now, I know this isn't meant to be a story of Ashrabia's life. Infact, that is where I stop in regards to the story.

Where I wish to continue is this. In my experience, there is so little difference between Golgonath and Elysium. Sure, there are some formality differences, a general difference in tolerance, though there is a great deal that is similiar. Both cities exist, acknowledge each other, though there is no real conflict...

I mean, looking back at that war... what was Elysium's driving purpose? Golgonath is its natural enemy, though Elysium forced it's own will upon that of Golgonath? One must wonder, what is the difference between Elysium and Golgonath? Anybody would expect Golgonath to take villages, betray alliances, kill friends, all on a whim. Elysium seemed to have flexed it's muscles, because it realized it could. Though, also because they saw an opportunity. Ysallyra's desperation was clearly evident and was taken advantage of... thus the reason how Elysium still maintained a significant sized army when all was said and done.

Now. Don't get me wrong. This is all the past... nothing can be done about it. However, how we progress forward is something we can deal with. Do i think that the enemies, people between Elysium and Golgonath should be mingling the way they do now... No. Though, that is a general statement. The events that have transpired between Arabelle and Arquael (though i don't know all the details) are something of interest. How I think something like that should be done. In the shadows, hidden. Caution taken.

I'd like to see verbal conflicts, tests of wit, ability... Should a group of 3 Golgonath citizens walk upon a elysium citizen... lets play the sistuation? As the elysium citizen, would you feel threatened? Would you run at the sight of them? How would you recieve their goading? If things find their way leading to combat... Does Golgonath slay their victim? Leave him/her beat down... Maybe bring them to the city... hang them making a show for the citizens of Golgonath...

Both sides need to be involved... there has to be a bit of give and take. What I don't like to see though, is how Elysium walks in... and Golgonath flees or vice versus... Stick around... let the opportunity for drama ensue. (I know... so easy it is to preach... rather than do)

Lord Jaethor, Kinzie and Lord Bralnok... more of a character story than a city story... but these actions are more due to the value... the relationships involved.

To Dimetrius's comment how you weren't on the receiving end of having your army decimated. This comment has annoyed me for a long time. Not because there isn't truth in it. We all must understand that our actions have consequences. However, even as a Master, I felt that the conclusion of that war was constantly being used as an excuse. "You see what happened last time? That will happen again!" No where in Golgonath's help files, Guild Files, or history is Golgonath ever depicted as cowards.

Now, I also say this with a bit of sympathy. Golgonath's situation is a rather difficult one. How can they be expected to act like... "cocky bastards", act evil, take what is not theres and impose there will upon those who would reject it? As soon as Golgonath 'moves' Elysium intereferes. Though, I place no blame on Elysium. This is a natural re-action to the advances that an enemy nation would make. However, what if we waited? Waited for Grebnarsh to ask for help? Called for its freedom to be returned? Or... maybe Grebnarsh would relish in their occupation and acclimate into Golgonath's society? Did the United States rush into World War 2... no... we needed an attack upon pearl harbor to bring us in. (Not completely related, but it applies.) All of this while knowing that Hitler was... crazy and committing wrongs upon the Jews.

This is not meant to be a critisism and no way am I putting myself above anyone. I am trying to take myself out of it and assess things from another perspective. It is hard. I often times am left with more questions when I think upon such things.

[Pyrok]

The whole 'Golgonath is the same basically as Elysium' is an old topic/theory, one that cropped up for me when I was starting out in Ysallyra (I think Azure held that theory, for those of you who remember him you'll know how long ago that was.) Believe the term was 'Elysium and Golgonath were two sides of the same coin.' Course this theory worked when Ysallyra's role was balance. Which generated alot of conflict. But it came at a price (naturally, this was the progression of that conflict) Ysallyra had to change, maintaining the balance wasn't doing us any good. (Frankly I don't really know the details behind the change, not being of political privvy to the initial discussion.)

Back then you wouldn't find any Golgonian outside their walls for any longer than what it took to do a quest, or decimate a challenger. They weren't exactly sociable at the time. Elysium was a righteous city, amiable to most they met, aside from those who crossed the Republic or if you were demonic.
Times changed for them too, Golgonath (to me) went from surly thug who'd smash anyone at the slightest wronging, to what looks like a more sneaky sort.
It's one thing to flex your muscles and rattle your sabers at someone, in reality that might intimidate a few people. But unfortunately in the virtual world that is Akanbar where everyone has bizzare hair/eye colours and every man's muscles threaten to tear off his clothes when he moves and is always six foot tall (makes it hard to use the words 'average height' when the average is six foot by the way) no one is even remotely intimidated by let's say... Dimetrius. (i pick on you alot don't I?) If you were to meet Dimetrius in real life he'd incinerate you for one reason or another. In Akanbar Dimetrius is likely met with scorn. Bravado is the word.

So generating conflict isn't easy when you're not scared of the person you face.
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to conflict.
So is conflict wanted? Yes, but we all have different play styles which in turn influence our RP.

For example David here on the forums is frequently on the topic of towers and raiding. David in game has a reputation as being a hard fighter. That personality trait influences an aspect of his roleplay.
Chyren on the forums touts the qualities of player to player roleplay, and in game (i think, its hard to tell with some people honestly) he does just that. These are just a few people.

Conflict isn't easy to achieve amongst such a diverse group of personalities and personal play styles, most will do everything in their power to avoid conflict, as it ironically conflicts with what they want to do. Some will ignore it, as it won't affect them like myself for example, what sort of inter-city conflict would affect a rogue? And the remainder will do everything they can to generate conflict and are labelled as malcontents, troublemakers and peace-breakers, which they aren't keen on accepting as part of the process.
So it's not a matter of 'I can't generate conflict' but more 'I want to generate conflict without ticking off my friends.'
Which is where the real guts of the whole 'wanted: conflict' topic lies. We've made friends with everyone in the game, or we at least know when the other has had a bad day. It makes even simple things like turfing a bad governing official incredibly difficult if you're friends with the person.

For example, I joined Golgonath with the simple thought that the whole point of Golgonath was to get to Master of All. That alone generated a whole world of personal conflict for me, which ultimately got me into a Master position on, admittedly, a technicality. After a while I tired of the conflict, and I tired of banging heads with someone I more or less considered a friend. How that played out for Pyrok was him throwing in the towel, and returning to his reclusive rogue life.

So conflict is wanted, needed and is alot of fun to do it. But unfortunately it comes with a price not many of us are capable of spending. Though more power to those of us that can.

[David]

I think Pyrok touches on a topic just briefly that speaks volumes to the current state of the realm. I am going to quote it below because I think it is why the land is stagnant.

"Conflict isn't easy to achieve amongst such a diverse group of personalities and personal play styles, most will do everything in their power to avoid conflict, as it ironically conflicts with what they want to do." -Pyrok

I am not here trying to say conflict is everything and a driving point to all that is a mud/akanbar, but a large population fails into the above quote. Many people will turn and run if there is a fight even if it involves the very fraction they are opposing. If they do fight, it's because they are forced into it and then when they die because they haven't honed their skills or affliction curing then they usually dive deeper into the running away from conflict. I'd like to think that when a player joins a primary fighting guild is because in fact they wish to fight. Are the wardens a primary fighting guild? No, they aren't, but their skills are mostly made up of abilities that lead to capable fighting. The will to be a good fighter/leader has just lost it's way in this world, and there is much potential to accomplish such. It isn't wrong for these people to not wish conflict, but in joining a city such as Golgonath or Elysium that is the main plot of the good vs evil in the land .....and you do join one of the three fighting skill guilds, you're going to have to expect a fight.

I again agree with Pyrok saying that conflict is wanted, but it's wanted to be easy and a fight is never an easy thing. A person cannot just pick up a guildset and be good at it, they need to practice and fail....fail multiple times to become a good fighter and from there you build, build to leading raids or bashes, then you take that and you teach....teach people around you not to give up after one fight because you got dominated or lost. Just because you lost a raid defense or a challenge today, doesn't mean tomorrow you can take what you failed at and learn from it.

Anyways, that is just my thoughts, thanks for hearing me out.

[David]

Going to attempt to bump this thread to hopefully generate a bit more buzz on what people think is going wrong with the lack of conflict currently within Akanbar. There is currently a War, but I think Chyren said in a way that it's a War that's being said "We're at War" instead of "Join us while we go liberate the demonic forces of Golgonath!" (vice versa).

[Viridiana]

Nevermind. What I had written wasn't productive and didn't even make sense. Sorry.

[Pyrok]

A potential solution?

I think what needs to happen, is that EVERYONE gets together not as citizens of one realm or another
but as the player base to discuss and decide what broad spectrum RP topic can be pursued.
Kind of like my 'What If'.
Let's say Golgonian players and Elysian players get together and as PLAYERS not Master of All and Senator of Finance, and go something like this:
'Okay, from a gameplay and roleplay standpoint we're at war. Correct?'
'Yes.'
'Odds are this won't come down to just who's got the bigger army as that's probably what's slowing this conflict down. It will come down to something else, some inter player confrontation. Not raids, just... something.'
'What are you getting at?'
'What I propose, and feel free to shoot this down, is that we pre-determine a few roles.'
'Roles? Like actors?'
'Yes. For example, Seig decides to leak some kind of information to Nyxra, which could swing the war in
your favour.'
'But why would that do any good? You'd know.'
'Yes, as players, we'd know. But Seig gets to choose how, when and why. Even gets to choose if he wants to do it or not.'
'Alright, what about us?'
'Same thing.'
ETCETERA

What I'm suggesting is to work out a REALLY rough plot of how things would go down. Make it so that there are some key things that could completely screw one side over, a 'Choose Your Own Adventure' type deal. You could select randomly who gets what role, and whomever fulfills more 'RP objectives' could win the war. Worst case scenario your side loses and you're forced to deal with the fallout from that, but that would only be because that you didn't do enough to stop them.
Let's go straight to Seig being accused of leaking critical information to Nyxra.

'Seig, I've heard talk that you've been feeding information to Golgonath.'
Seig has some options depending on how he wants (AS SOMEONE PLAYING SEIG) this to play out.
A) Confess, and hope for the best
B) 'I've been framed!'
C) Demand that they prove it.

Let's say Seig goes with option C, and demands proof of his treachery. Now the accuser has to present proof. Since Elysium is a democratic place, there would have to be proof of it, as you can't turf someone on suspicious means. 'Innocent until proven guilty' would apply here.

Accuser's options:
A) Present damning evidence either from a neutral party
B) Present 'damning' evidence from Nyxra herself. (Seig would get more options here)
C) Inform Seig that he is under suspicion.


This would create a great deal of game wide conflict and inter personal conflict as well. But here's the deal
ANYONE DOING THIS WOULD BE EXEMPT FROM OOC RELATED WRATH.
That is the only provision for the agreement once rough details have been set. You cannot get pissy with the other player purely because he's ruined your artful, diabolical scheme to win the war. You can get mad at the character, in role.

[Bult]

Thats a well thought out concept, Pyrok. Unfortunately I think it would require a degree of maturity and objectivity that is beyond most players. Even if you could get players to sit down and come up with a plan, I'd wager the conditions each side offered to the other for victory would be improbable or impossible to meet.
Also recall that the idea of "player" generated roleplay has been around for a long while and has been suggested by some important people. Yet it remains a extremely rare occurance.

So in the words of some clever fellow...I reject your idea and substitute my own.

Currently to a greater or lesser degree the 3 realms are cheerfully ignoring each other on a political level. Yes, there is a war going on, but that amounts to undefended raids, low impact disguising and the occasional unproductive verbal spat. On the political level there are no ultimatums, no demands, or discussions other than the obligitory "state of war".

My idea would be to introduce a third party protagonist, a new faction that could pose a risk to all three realms.
Something along the lines of a invading orcish army, or barbarians looking for new lands to plunder.
The new faction would have actual armies under its control, and have the ability to march troops, assault city gates, and occupy villages. It would have actual soldiers that could attack players and maybe try to control certain areas in the lands. There would be an abassador type whom would issue demands and perhaps even be available at times to negotiate with. And the entire faction would be too powerful or numberous for any one realm to resist by itself. The idea would be that this isn't a foe you can "defeat" but would remain a persistant while intermittent threat to the lands. Every so often they would gather strength and plunge the lands into chaos again.

With these new tools, and a sliver of imagination it would be easy to then create a situation that requires the realms to work in concert or at least interact with each other. Opportunities for alliances, cease fires, assistance, miltary aid, betrayals and bluffs could be created, and the effects of these may be felt even after the initial threat of the invaders has passed. Its even possible, but by no means guarenteed, that people on opposing realms could even find a level of respect for each other and thus allow further opportunities to be created as per Pyrok's suggestion above.

I do understand that what I have suggested in a massive amount of work for somebody, but I also feel that something of this magnitude is required to breath some life into Akanbar again.

PS didn't check spelling, so sorry if that offends anyone.

[Chyren]

Pyrok: I'm really trying not to sound insulting, but- ..what? Player made, driven and controlled plots do nothing to further the game. That scenario would be awesome while it was going on, maybe, but then we'd still be left in the same place we are now.

Bult: There was something going on with armies from Mt. Arquenos taking up a place near the gates of each city to protect them from something, no idea what the 'something' was or what happened to it.

We need more inter-city RP. Relax the association laws and you'll get it. It'll foster conflicts between people that normally wouldn't have anything to do with each other. You're the leader of a city, fine, enforce the laws about city enemies within -YOUR- domain. If they're outside of your city, so long as they're not breaking laws whether they're global or city(And you should know whom to trust here), let things go a bit more. Allow relationships to be built across city-borders, and I don't just mean sexual.

Speaking of trust- TRUST your fellow player. We are here(although I use 'we' loosely when it comes to me) together to make this an experience worth being involved in, not to screw with each other for the lolz.

[Oskar]

Speaking of trust- TRUST your fellow player. We are here(although I use 'we' loosely when it comes to me) together to make this an experience worth being involved in, not to screw with each other for the lolz.

Not to call the kettle black here or anything, but most people are complete jerks two-faced or not. Can't trust anyone for fear of being betrayed here is the problem I face. Not to mention, you can't sneak and be underhanded in Golgonath right now. Everything is ran by one man, no divine just Diesus, suffocating if you ask me. All because no one is around to do anything. Viri just started popping back in. Maybe things will change.

[Pyrok]

I wasn't looking to further the game, I was looking to further conflict. The game plot is effectively out of our hands, so why try to force something we have so little control over?