Is conflict wanted?

[Malic]

I was curious what people thought about conflict.

I'm not talking about personal conflict, like calling someone ugly. I mean inter-realm conflict, city pited against city.
I recall when I first arrived in the lands, joining Golgonath that there was a real sense of "us and them". That I was to strive hard so we could combat our ancient foes, it was an exciting concept. I didn't fight much in those early days but the idea of who I was and what my realm stood for was very clear. This ultimately culminated several years ago with Golgonath fighting a war against the allied might of the other two cities. This battle as many of you will know ended in a frustrating defeat for Golgonath, even so this was without a doubt the single most exciting event that I have experienced in Akanbar. The result of the war was a treaty that ensured peace for a number of years, which I personally found rather frustrating given the excitment of the challenge that fighting over whelming odds presented. But every game has rules, and losing meant we had to curb our actions. Since the end of the treaty, I have noticed a subtle slide of these firmly held beliefs that the realms previously held. Elysium and Golgonath have discussed peace and trade deals, ancient enemies entertain each other socially, love affairs across realms are increasing, guild enemies are sought out for training advice, and generally people are defying the ideals that their realms believe in. Now I'm not saying that we should all be realm automatons, and I think that a little bit of deviation is good for roleplay, but when it becomes wholesale it has the opposite effect.
I'm not advocating another great war, even though I'm sure I'd enjoy it, but I do think that people have forgotten what it means to follow their realms beliefs for the sake of convenience or just so they can get along with other people. I've said on these forums previously that every great drama or saga has had conflict, its required, there has to be a faction or entity that is opposed to you. I just don't feel Akanbar has that right now.
Its worth noting that the admin are happy with the current state of peace within the lands, and have taken steps to see it continue.
But I thought I'd pose the question to you all;
Are you happy with the current level of conflict in Akanbar right now?

[Aaridan]

With no surprise from anyone, I will have to agree with what Malic is preaching here. When I was a novice in Akanbar nearly three rl years ago, even in Ysallyra there was great tension with Golgonath and Elysium and then of course the pure hatred of Golgonath vs Elysium. Now after that short stint in Ysallyra, I went off to Elysium where it was basically pounded in your head that you weren't meant to be in a Golgonath citizen's location unless you were fighting and/or raiding their towers. It's just a sad state of affairs, and perhaps my twelve year experience in mudding isn't hip to the new generation of what people come to expect in their muds, but lately it just feels like Akanbar is a chat room with special features.

The war between Elysium and Golgonath for basically my entire mud experience in Akanbar was the most enjoyable experience i've had with any mud, the difficulty it offers is really unique and challenges each person's true skill. When Ysallyra joined in and sided with Elysium, it was such an interesting challenge to all of Golgonath to overcome such odds, granted they lost, but it was still a learning experience and a lot of people were able to test their might. I am not saying, hey let's all jump into a war from any standpoint, but at least acting like people don't like each other would be a decent start.

I won't ask if anyone is happy with the current lack of conflict as I think it's clear people are content with not fighting one another or causing any type of drama. I will ask though what happened to the old ideals that the very foundation of the game is based around has gone?

[Cherise]

I haven't played long, but here's my two cents.

I have never played a MUD where there is no "central" conflict, good vs evil with a "neutral" (I know we're not "neutral" but this is the general idea ok?) side that either stays out of things or sides with one of the two extreme "forces". It seems very odd to me, this whole current situation.

Without a central conflict, I think things stagnate. Honestly, if you want to be friends with everyone and get along and play nice, across all realms, then um...join a chat room? Because what is the point. I'm the first to admit, in this world, I am NOT a fighter, and probably never will be. However, past experience has taught me, when war is going on, it sharpens everyone's skills and focus, becoming better fighters. But not just the fighters have a benefit. Conflict generally creates a good economy. As I was told, for example, you get troops moving, you have to feed them and equip them, right? You get the general idea.

Anyways, that's my opinion. I'm for conflict.

[Pyrok]

I'm for conflict as well (makes for great what ifs) the thing with a centralized conflict is that once that conflict is resolved there isn't anything to do, until new problems arise. I'm going to play an old card here, but perhaps there can be some guild conflicts coughthievescough. Personally I have no real issue causing problems for individuals or populations in general, and guilds or even people who are willing to cause these conflicts should do so. Yes it upsets people, that's what conflict is. If you want to start... Uh let's go with 'something' you have to step on a few toes and break some noses.

Against the law? Who cares?
Will upset your government/friends/diety/pet rock? That'd be the price you pay for conflict
Entertains people whether they like it or not? Awesome
gives yo something to do other than quest for some old bag's broomstick? Priceless.

Quests aren't what makes Akanbar great, it's the conflicts that arise from its players.
Traders embezzle someone
Knights embark upon some damn fool crusade
Assassins actually ASSASSINATE someone do some mutually agreed by all parties contract killing
Evil doers plot and scheme hell even let some schemes fail!
Granted this can be chalked up to RP but seriously, you dont need to RP any of this really, though it does add atmosphere

but what do i know, I can't even play at the mo'
and this can be said again and again ad naseum, but till it's done, it will be always just said

[Kenan]

I apologise in advance for being a bit OOC in these comments - they address how the issue of conflict affects gameplay experience - and for their rather lengthy character. But I do have a bit of a different personal take on this from what seems to be the concensus so far, so hopefully people will bear with me and feel free to respond.

If by conflict people mean the kind that leads to fighting out of challenge, raids, warfare, I'm afraid I'm against it. To me, what this means is that I can be going about my business doing pretty much what I feel like doing, and someone can come along, decide that they would rather I was doing something else (generally fighting, or defending a raid), and impose that on me. This bores me quickly. Akanbar is the only MUD I have found that actually lets me decide what I want to do and get on with it. (Though I was lucky to land in Ysallyra, because with the Golgonath/Elysium raiding that was going on, if I had been in one of those cities, I'd have decided I was just in another standard MUD with its own variant of supposedly 'restricted' PK and I wouldn't have stayed around.)

Some may think that it's in the nature of this type of gaming to be imposed upon in this way. But there's no shortage of MUDs where people can experience this form of conflict, and I don't see why we should view the status of 'bog standard' as something worth aspiring to. As things are, I can fight challenges, I can go harvesting, I can quest, I can bash, I can explore, I can go sailing, I can interact with others, and, crucially, I can do these things when I choose to. That's not easily found elsewhere, and this freedom and range of choice is the chief thing I value in Akanbar. Upping the level of conflict across the board towards what is readily found elsewhere just takes it away.

I don't agree with the often-heard adage that 'Conflict is the essence of RP' either. I would prefer 'The management of conflict is the essence of RP'. Conflict doesn't just need to revolve round fighting, enmities, vendettas, stealing - it can include conflicts of interests or conflicts of values, whether between individuals, between cities, or within cities, and good RP can entail trying to find ways to negotiate and work round conflicts of whatever sort, with a view to resolving or defusing them where possible. To my mind, the usual concept of conflict is in fact inimical to any kind of sophisticated social interaction - it's just used as a fast track to fighting and in most MUDs that produces a level of RP that boils down to 'You looked at me sideways, sirrah! How dare you! Die! Bad-a-bing, bad-a-boom'.

That said, I see the point of Aaridan's observations regarding people being in the same locations as city enemies, fraternisation between folk from cities with conflicting ideals, and the like. It does seem rather to take away the point of having different cities. But as far as I can see, this arises less from a lack of conflict per se, than from a lack of a sense of each cities' defining ideals, of what they stand for in themselves. That lack is one of the main things I've felt in Ysallyra recently and I certainly felt there was a much stronger general awareness of all the cities' values in the past, even when Ysallyra was not involved in the other cities' conflicts. Maybe I'm imagining that nostalgically, but if I'm not, then perhaps giving more emphasis to those ideals would lead to more dedication to strengthening cities, and would also result in more tension and conflict that would stop people getting bored or listless - though I'd still rather that people could view conflict with a more imaginative approach that could see other outcomes than the usual noises, threats, and battles, which will just lead to me getting bored and listless myself.

[Chyren]

In short, because I don't have the want to make walls of text:

Conflict would be a good way to get players who are like, 'WELL. What now?' back around for things. Once you do most of the stuffs, you've got a few choices - They all involve eihter a bedroom, or a weapon. Sometimes both.

Zycandos said he'd be coming out with stuff? Didn't he? Right?..Right?

[Kenan]

'Conflict would be a good way to get players who are like, 'WELL. What now?' back around for things.'

My impression was that it had the opposite effect - it certainly did with me, and it always seemed to me that whichever one of Elysium or Golgonath was getting battered in raids rapidly depopulated.

'Once you do most of the stuffs, you've got a few choices - They all involve either a bedroom, or a weapon. Sometimes both.'

Maybe I have too much imagination then. And if I'd heard that from you before, I'd have been a lot more careful over what weapons I was handling round the Assassins guild... Definitely too much imagination...

[Joscelin]

In short, because I don't have the want to make walls of text:

Conflict would be a good way to get players who are like, 'WELL. What now?' back around for things. Once you do most of the stuffs, you've got a few choices - They all involve eihter a bedroom, or a weapon. Sometimes both.

Zycandos said he'd be coming out with stuff? Didn't he? Right?..Right?

That was so long ago I almost forgot. o_o

I grew up in the Elysian-Golgonian Wars. The whole reason I ever got into participating with others in fights was because of the interesting roleplay that conflict and competition brought. Nowadays it's like one big boring party where everybody mingles with each other irregardless of the supposed historical conflict existing between each city.

[roeshak]

Personally, I think that we have been lacking in conflict here lately. I grew up in Golgonath doing wars and raids. New city, but I really think we are coming to a point where everyone is just mingling together. I just dont' see how war would be a bad thing, it adds to RP, it gives EVERYONE something to do, and it adds a little spice to everyone's 'normal' lives (ig)

[Chyren]

There is no 'enemy' in Akanbar. City or otherwise.

Without an 'enemy/other-side', there isn't a place for conflict to start that is MEANINGFUL. Sorry, arguments between cities or in cities that last a day or two don't count.

[Xinia]

There is no 'enemy' in Akanbar. City or otherwise.

Without an 'enemy/other-side', there isn't a place for conflict to start that is MEANINGFUL. Sorry, arguments between cities or in cities that last a day or two don't count.

I kind of disagree. Elysium and Golgonath are "enemies", but each side is... bleh. I said this somewhere else, I think, but whatever. The thing that irks me about Elysium is more of a personal character flaw of mine. Elysium is way too respectful towards enemies, sometimes. During WW2, we didn't go "oh, hello, Nazi. How are you doing? I hear your wife went into labour." No, you went "AHH! DIE!" etc etc. (no offense to you Germans out there).

The essential part of war isn't personifying your enemy. Your enemy is a monster. Nothing more, nothing less. But Elysium is sometimes full of too many smiles and bows to consider people to be monstrosities. Golgonath, I'm actually surprised hasn't started a war with Elysium yet. And I never pretended to understand what's going on in Ysallyra, so... I'm not going to start now. (That's not meant as a jab; I really don't know things pertaining to Ysallyra aside from their ideals.)

And my personal opinion is yea, conflict would be nice. It doesn't always have to mean full out pk war, but that's just my idea.

[Kenan]

Elysium is way too respectful towards enemies, sometimes. During WW2, we didn't go "oh, hello, Nazi. How are you doing? I hear your wife went into labour." No, you went "AHH! DIE!" etc etc. (no offense to you Germans out there).

During WW II there were clear rules of engagement defined by the Geneva and Hague conventions that set limits as to what was acceptable behaviour in dealing with the enemy both in and out of combat. Rules of war like these have been laid down since ancient times. Combatants may not have abided by them at all times, but the idea was that they should do so (hence the concept of war crimes). I don't know much about Elysian ways, but it seems to me that having such rules and trying to take them seriously is part of what makes them distinct as a city.

[Joscelin]

Dunno about that. During my time in Elysium. Whenever the young talked smack on Golgonian sides. The Golgonians would tell on the Senators/Guild Leaders about it, which leads to the youngin' gettin' in huge trouble about behavior. It was kind of awkward... young Elysians getting disciplined for treating a historical enemy even with the slightest impoliteness. I think it chased a lot of them away during my time, and I feel kinda guilty for contributing to the correction of their "misbehavior".

[Chyren]

I kind of disagree. Elysium and Golgonath are "enemies", but each side is... bleh. I said this somewhere else, I think, but whatever. The thing that irks me about Elysium is more of a personal character flaw of mine. Elysium is way too respectful towards enemies, sometimes.

Going to ignore the WWII parallel, because I didn't really think it worked.

Elysium and Golgonath are not enemies. They are acquaintances at best. They know each other is there, but do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it.

If they were enemies, they would have hostility. Arguments about essential things, IE, slavery, power, personal rights and freedoms, et cetera.

[Dimetrius]

Going to ignore the WWII parallel, because I didn't really think it worked.

Elysium and Golgonath are not enemies. They are acquaintances at best. They know each other is there, but do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it.

If they were enemies, they would have hostility. Arguments about essential things, IE, slavery, power, personal rights and freedoms, et cetera.

Well, when you've had your armies completely wiped out by a tag team from the two other cities, it makes it a little more difficult to cause trouble. Though, of course, it's still fun to pretend you have a safety net every now and then.

Wink.