Is conflict wanted?

[Jaethor]

I wasn't looking to further the game, I was looking to further conflict. The game plot is effectively out of our hands, so why try to force something we have so little control over?

This is false.

[Oskar]

This is false.

We always have control of how plot goes in this game, it was most recently proven by Elysium. If I remember correctly Rhyndar had a plot event ready for them, and there lack of interest in said event killed it so it never happened.

[Jaethor]

As I do not wish to turn this into another "you're able to do almost anything... just do it" thread, as I feel this is more toward mechanical conflict, I will state something on it.

Players will always metagame. You cannot let your fears of such or fears of upsetting your friends, fears of losing your position in a guild or other faction or any other fears get in your way. Yes, if you lie to the leader of Golgonath, chances are if he or she finds out, you're in trouble. In my opinion, it is more likely for a leader of a faction to be lenient toward you if you're not causing conflict in your own group.

Pertaining to friends being angry at you over something you do in a game, there will be some and most players have run into such things. If you trust them enough to not metagame, prepare them for it. There are several shades of conflict, a question that divides them being "Does this ruin so-and-so's experience?" or "Does this add to so-and-so's experience?". Starting a rumor that Oskar is rendezvousing with Ilshara for midnight strolls will probably ruin his experience as he is kicked out. Other choices may not.

Concerning metagaming, if you feel a proxy is wanted, you can use a god as one. Some gods may not want to be used as such as they enjoy other things. I know at least one god dislikes talking OOCly. If you cannot find one, I volunteer.

To summarize my point, being too afraid to do anything isn't helping anyone. Take a gamble and try something. I hope the curse of no one posting after this does not happen.

[Chyren]

Not to call the kettle black here or anything, but most people are complete jerks two-faced or not. Can't trust anyone for fear of being betrayed here is the problem I face. Not to mention, you can't sneak and be underhanded in Golgonath right now. Everything is ran by one man, no divine just Diesus, suffocating if you ask me. All because no one is around to do anything. Viri just started popping back in. Maybe things will change.

I'm..unsure of what you're trying to get across to me. The city of Golgonath is grossly underpopulated and one of the most active is at the head: What about Marissa(?), you, Nyxra(Nyxre? can't remember). Why not try and sway people from other cities to join you? There is nothing stopping you from doing more to enlarge Golgonath.

I sincerely hope nobody reading my posts takes them as insulting or mean-spirited. This is not my intention by any means. I played Akanbar for at least half a decade and do not want to see it at a low point again. Maybe my efforts are a bit..helter-skelter in terms of approach or wording, but that's my own failing in trying to get across my sentiments.

[Oskar]

I cannot recruit people to the city, I do not have the power .I never meant to come across like that.

Also what I was saying was I cannot trust many people in this game because they will just betray you for lolz as Pyrok put it (I believe it was him.)

While speaking on the Golgonath matter I was simply venting how people there seem to just be happy surviving rather than putting in some effort to actually do things. We don't seem to have anything planned out. Just the usual Donate city needs gold for troops, which we never seem to do anything with.

[Chyren]

I cannot recruit people to the city, I do not have the power. I never meant to come across like that.

That sounds like bull to me. Just because you can't citizen someone with the actual game mechanic command, it does not mean you can't go out somewhere and try to sway people's opinions about you, your city, the leaders or a divine, you know?

[David]

That sounds like bull to me. Just because you can't citizen someone with the actual game mechanic command, it does not mean you can't go out somewhere and try to sway people's opinions about you, your city, the leaders or a divine, you know?

I usually agree with you, but this one I will have to disagree with to a certain extent. I don't see how convincing people to join Golgonath/Ysallyra/Elysium will increase conflict in anyway. They will come over, there will probably be a bit of trading of swords/magic/whatever and then after a week it'll be over with. Back a year or so ago, I could understand what you mean by trying to get people to switch their guild to another in attempts to gain power over another city via questing/trading/military, but the feeling of importance isn't there. That piled up with the leaders that allow the person in will probably hold that very person back from their full potential because that leader is scared that they will be pushed aside.

I will go out on a limb and say that Golgonath is the large problem on what is going on, they just aren't spreading evil. Half the time my character David wonders why he even tries to raid/disguise/pick fights with demons. The same leaders have been in place for a very long time and nothing is happening from a conflict standpoint. Oskar seems like a capable person capable of crushing many people in the land of Akanbar, but he isn't a leader? Golgonath is meant to be all about power, but they continue to hold those with power back. This isn't a hey, put Oskar in place post....it's more of hey Oskar instead of crying on the forums go out and challenge for that position of War master....then motivate/convert people from that position.

Don't get me wrong I am not placing all the blame on Golgonath, Elysium has it's own fair share of issues, but perhaps that reasoning is because most the time they're asking themselves why are we even at war? You all know me well enough by now that I do like the drama involved in a good fight, I like to test my characters might against the odds. My time has dwindled to nearly nothing, but that doesn't mean I don't care....I just wish that there was an actual war to come around to be involved with.

Wouldn't it be amusing as the military leader to log on and send a group of guards/warden npcs into Golgonath using a npc skill disguising and taking out a few patrols? The citizens of Golgonath would be faced with having to dispose of those Elysian npcs with their own and their blades before their patrol got taken out.

Or.....I can just repeat what Bult said because that really seemed like an ideal approach. Plus one to his post(Wish we had the like feature as well Pyrok)

[Bult]

You're only as effective at recruiting as your leaders will allow you to be. Golgonath's leaders still seem to be struggling with finding a balance between being evil, and being a good leader. You have to go all the way back, nearly 70 years, to Veran, to find a Master of All who actually "encouraged" the citizens of Golgonath to be better than they were. Since then the MoA's have all focused their evil ways inwards, creating a difficult time and holding back the citizenry of Golgonath. In Golgonath's early days there was an option of challenging the Master for their position through combat, now it is only the oft absent patrons who can change a Master of All. I think this is hurting Golgonath as a whole.

Chyren, the Arquenian army that was placed outside Golgonath was there to act as a military buffer. The idea was to allow Golgonath the freedom to be evil without them being targeted for occupation again because their army strength was still far below Elysium's after the great war. To my knowledge there was no other plans for their use.

At the risk of repeating myself; I don't believe leaving plot creation in the hands of the players is working. I can't think of a single plot line that was player created and an involved cross realm conflict, unless we go back to the great war, and that's a little too long between drinks. I feel global plots that involve all realms will have far greater impact on the enjoyment factor for the players and lead to much greater interaction and even conflict.

[Viridiana]

As one of the 'leaders' of Golgonath (spare me your criticism, I've heard them all) I have kind of a unique perspective. It seems to me that the conflict is always reactive. Nobody really does anything unless Golgonath does something first. Yes there are raids and city infiltration but to what end? We all know those acts don't really count for much....at all. So we play the marching game. I'll march to a nearby village, David will kill me half a dozen times until I arrive at my destination. Then he'll march his own from Elysium. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

Golgonath is very underpopulated and I've been trying my damndest to get people motivated and get some real answers out of them. I've had it with the 'Yes, Mistress, everything is fine Mistress' answers I get from EVERYONE. Golgonians want to know why the city is so stagnant, and I give them answers. I'm sorry it's not what they want to hear but it's the truth. Bring me ideas, suggestions, anything. I don't bite and am usually more than willing to work something out if it's in my power.

I'm going to agree with Bult and say that player driven plots just do not work. Ideas and plot lines from players are fine but with no one to police it, each side just turns into a bunch of Mary Sue's. I'm also extremely discouraged from putting any real effort into creating a plot or event that requires an admin to implement. I won't go into details but it's been disappointing and I really don't feel like the effort on my part would be worth it anymore.

This is turning into a rant.

So how do we make conflict? I wish I had a concrete answer for that. But what I would like to happen is the association laws being a little less restricting. (I think Chyren mentioned this before). If citizens can't interact with the very enemies they are supposed to be fighting, there won't be any real drama outside of an actual challenge. Which in my opinion has about as much drama as an algebra problem. Get to know your enemies, let some animosity build, let things get personal. Isn't that what really makes an enemy? Not just a list posted by the city?

Wouldn't it be amusing as the military leader to log on and send a group of guards/warden npcs into Golgonath using a npc skill disguising and taking out a few patrols? The citizens of Golgonath would be faced with having to dispose of those Elysian npcs with their own and their blades before their patrol got taken out.

Yes! That would be fun!

[Oskar]

I partially/fully agree with both of you, Without Golgonath Being Evil or doing something. What drive does Elysium have to make a counter effort against them. I wish we had a divine, so that they could give us some sort of direction (besides, giving into there desires, any bedding as many people as possible). With how things are now I don't know if Diesus even has a plan, when Oskar asks him the reply he gets is "We need to work on donations to raise a army." Yet I never see this army or a real push for donations it feels half-hearted. Also even if I was the Master of war I still could not do anything without Diesus's permission so that still leaves us in kind of a pickle.

Possibly we could get rid of the MoA's position since really there is no way to replace him, he can just sit and do nothing. Or we could use a divine that actually wants to forward the game and not disappear once they take over? Or some form that lets the citizens of Golgonath decide what to do maybe a vote? Or have the Masters choose the Master of all so that if the Master of all is found incompetent he can be removed with a vote from the council. Just some ideas, feel free to find the holes in them I am just trying to add some kind of solution to the problem.

[Viridiana]

I wouldn't be against elections in Golgonath again. Though the last time we did that everyone tried to usurp Master positions over and over again, which doesn't really make things stable. That being said,the game's lore made Golgonath an Empire, not a democracy or republic. Rome was an Empire and the Emperors and Caesars weren't elected into those positions. (Yes Rome fell, so has Golgonath).

I do however, agree with you Oskar on the idea of having the council, (or in this case, the Inner Circle) have a say in who will be Master of All. That at least would limit the amount of internal treachery, because gods know everyone thinks they can do a better job than everyone else.

[David]

Or just burn the entire city down to the ground and start over......haha but really I meant it not to be a personal shot at you Viridiana about claiming Mistress of War/Master of War...it was just an example of something that should be given to Oskar given his abilities on the combat field.

I agree that player plots are very unreal and impossible to maintain more than a rl day or so. You both touch on the topic that Golgonath must be evil for anything interesting to happen, this much is true. Ysallyra now with it's new ideals and makeup aren't going to involve themselves in any type of fight and if so it'll be very isolated. For any real conflict to happen it must be Golgonath pushing the lines of the laws of the world and sometimes breaking them. I think that at times the players do have ideas, one being Aaridan the other month coming around to shout a rebellion against this stagnant Empire leaders only to get his skills stripped and told he was violating help rogues. I am not saying that is the right way to go about things, but it was a case of a player taking a risk, but being told to it cannot be. Silly man though.....

Player plots seem well and dandy, but they just can't be maintained with no large central plot evolving around them. The central plot of Akanbar to me is the everlasting battle between good and evil. This just isn't happening from a player standpoint and often leads to what Viridiana said of just being marching without people on or majority only to last a tiny bit until it proves nothing.....then going out a few rl weeks later and trying again.

A slight mixup to Golgonath would serve the realm right, perhaps making a challenge political position via a challenge and if that person loses the match then they are regulated back to a slave for a course of a year or two ig and they have limited options on what they can do. With no offense to Diesus, a crafter that isn't Zorax being MOA just doesn't seem like it fits within the help file of what Golgonath should stand for. Last time I checked, I thought Golgonath was more concerned with doom and torturing people than the economy.

[Bult]

With regards to relaxing the association laws between enemied cities, its worth noting that the laws were orginally put in place to as an attempt to increase conflict. Prior to their creation it wasn't uncommon to find people chatting socially with people whom you were supposed to be at war with. Even as far as bashing together, starting relationships, or adopting them as family members. I would agree that this did create drama on several occasions, but I'm not sure a lovers quarrel was of much benefit to the game as a whole.

As for "taking a gamble" I'd say look at where these people are:
Ashrabia, Arylox and Nerros. Attempted takeover of Golgonath. All banished or banned.
Vriel. Hostile takeover of the pyromancer guild. Banished.
Aaridan. Ill-advised rebellion attempt. (and probably a fair bit of disrespect too). Statued.

I agree that the above people went far enough to deserve what they got. I would also say that if they had tried to do any less than they did, the end result would have been negligible and they may as well have not bothered in the first place.
To be unexpectedly banished from your current city is quite a serious thing. The game isn't very easy as a rogue, and to join another realm will usually require some serious character adjustment. eg: "Oh, I've had a revelation, and now I believe in a completely different set of ideals!" The possible gains of taking a gamble have to weighed up against this, its not hard to see which way the scales often tip.

Sorry for being negative. I'm just offering my opinion on why I feel lesser measures than my idea of a third party antagonist may not be enough. I'm really pleased at the level of intelligent input to this discussion though.

[Viridiana]

As for "taking a gamble" I'd say look at where these people are:
Ashrabia, Arylox and Nerros. Attempted takeover of Golgonath. All banished or banned.
Vriel. Hostile takeover of the pyromancer guild. Banished.
Aaridan. Ill-advised rebellion attempt. (and probably a fair bit of disrespect too). Statued.

Actually, Ashrabia and Arylox left on their own accord after Xyrath gave Dimetrius the Master of All position. They might have been banished or their lives might have just been made a living hell. We'll never know. Last I saw Nerros all he did was scratch his crotch (literally) so I can't comment on what he did.

Vriel did not attempt a hostile takeover of the Pyromancers. The guild seat was empty and there was an election. His banishment had nothing to do with the election itself. He actually won the election fairly but was removed because he was no longer a citizen.

Aaridan. That took guts. And I know several Golgies were seriously considering it.

Anyway, I'm sure the enemy laws were established to promote conflict and it probably worked for a while too. But now they've mutated into this horribly restricting, scene breaking nuisance. Like when two people are talking/arguing/threatening to one another, here comes city leader shaking the proverbial finger at their underling and carrying them off to the council chambers for further scolding and punishment.

So not only was the scene interrupted and broken, but now any potential mini plot between the two characters has now also been severed.

Take for example the happenings with Arabelle and Arquael. The results of that at least made some ripples outside just the two of them. Ichiban wanted to come after Arabelle and so on. I don't exactly know the details. But the point is, it raised some pulses and got people a bit riled up.

[Jaethor]

Aaridan. Ill-advised rebellion attempt. (and probably a fair bit of disrespect too). Statued.

I'm going to go and note that him turning into a statue was 100% because of the disrespect. Why do I care about a rebellion? That wasn't why I was warning him. He misunderstood what I was saying and began talking about the rebellion.