Smithing

[Dimetrius]

Is there any possibility of an upgrade/tweaking to the Smithing skillset, or weapon stat calculations? At present there are a lot of things that can be made by smiths, but many of them are only made for either A) the sake of making them, or B) as a personal request (very, very rare). Just to list a few of these sort-of-pointless craftables:

- knife
- dirk
- stiletto
- buckler
- cuirass
- shortsword
- rapier
- sabre
- broadsword
- ringmail
- mace
- bascinet
- cutlass
- scimitar
- halberd
- round shield
- morningstar
- a few others

The variety is great, don't get me wrong. But because of the stat calculations, there are pieces that are always, -always- in high demand, while others are overlooked because they're just less useful versions of the more expensive wares. A warrior could tote around a mace or halberd for show, just as any common adventurer could swish around a rapier in one hand and a buckler in the other, but no one is going to. Warriors are always going to save up for the best longsword, pike or greataxe they can find, and always, always opt for a tower shield, platemail and helm. Assassins will always pick the curved dagger over the other flavourful options, because they're just flat out better.

I suppose one could argue that, since the ore cost climbs for these preferred wares, all of the coin generation lost from the undesirable wares is made up for. However, no other tradeskill suffers from this niche sort of dilemma. Alchemists will always be making the low and high skill potions, apothecarists will always be picking the low and high skill herbs, miners will always be mining the low and high skill ores, so on and so forth.

Thoughts?

[Dimetrius]

One thought I had was more along the lines of alterations to Melee or Weapons, which would allow people to choose a "preferred" weapon or "weapon focus". This would allow them to choose from a wider assortment of weaponry, the skill then bringing the weapon's statistics up to par with the first-choice pieces. For example, a Templar with a warhammer weapon focus could still utilize a pike or longsword, but certain factors (balance speed, damage output, bleeding damage, chance of breaking limbs/scoring some sort of "critical", lots of options) would be improved when bashing with a warhammer.

Alternatively, bind warrior guilds to a preferred weapon type via Melee, which would force a spread across the board for high-end weapon demands. Legionnaires get the greatest effect from swords, Templars hammers, and Shadow Warriors axes.

Just brainstorming! Changes along these lines would not only give smiths more demand for certain, otherwise-forgotten weapons, while adding a bit more strategy to the static sort of issue our melee classes are faced with.

Another note: I'm not suggesting that all weapons should be reduced to identical statistics, but moreso hoping that people will have their hand forced a little less in regards to which one they should be toting around. Shortswords and rapiers take less ore to make, so therefore they should do a little less damage than longswords. But I would love for people to at least have a chance to choose, rather than being told "Well if you're not using a longsword, you're dumb".

[Seig]

But I would love for people to at least have a chance to choose, rather than being told "Well if you're not using a longsword, you're dumb".

If I had a copper for -every- fricking time I've heard this... I'd have a castle by now.

I am all for making some way to utilize more weapons. It fustrating, especially as a Knight-Type to be told not to use a weapon because its, "just not as good" as a longsword etc.

I like both your ideas, but I kind of want to lean more to the picking a specialization weapon.

[Pyrok]

Could always just beat them over the head with your non longsword weapon. Or explain to them using simple words that each weapon has an actual function, and isn't an amalgamation of preferred stats and numbers.


Example: http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/halberd.htm

[Dimetrius]

Unfortunately, mechanics trump in this case.

[Pyrok]

Stupid mechanics... ruining my fun.

[Dimetrius]

Idea!

New Weapons skill: Weapon Focus.

WEAPON FOCUS [weapon]
By training primarily with a single weapon type, you are able to increase your effectiveness with it. You may change your weapon focus once per year in the presence of a suitable tutor.

A basic idea I had for this is that focusing on a weapon will increase its highest statistic by a set figure (thinking 25 is decent), its lowest statistic by lesser amount (maybe 20) so long as you are wielding it, while offering a secondary bonus based on type: increased bleeding for edged (more for two-handed) and a chance to break limbs on strike for blunt.

Looking over the statistics of a few weapons I have on hand, this is how things would change with the above figures:

warhammer
122/109/85 -> 147/109/105

longsword
96/148/120 -> 116/178/120

rapier
67/72/160 -> 87/72/185

The downside to using a weapon focus would be that, if you try to wield a different style of weapon while your focus is active, its statistics will be lowered proportionately. With a focus on warhammers, my longsword statistics would change as follows:

longsword
96/148/120 -> 76/123/120

This not only forces you to stick to the weapon you choose, or avoid utilizing a focus entirely if you like to switch weapons on the fly. It adds a new element of balancing to choosing your weapon, which I find rather exciting. With the bonuses in place, it suddenly wouldn't be so odd to see a Merchant running about with a pike in hand, or a Legionnaire to start swinging a rapier instead of the boring longsword.

Each of the weapons still serve their basic purpose: pikes are still dealing heavy damage at low speed, longswords are still offering great defense with a balance of offense and speed. But this would help to bring the weapons less often looked at up to par with others, diversifying use across the board.

Thoughts?

[Silas]

Pikes would be OP.

[Dimetrius]

Hmm...halve the bonuses for two-handed weapons?

OR...

...switch the statistic bit around altogether: apply the high bonus to the lowest statistic, and the low bonus to the highest statistic. With a little rearranging of numbers, I think that could work out nicely on every front.

[David]

While I generally agree and support this idea. I think that the focusing of items would be a bit far fetched and make certain items overpowered(Longsword/Pike).

I think that the lesser items should be able to have some form of increased focus in hopes to making a truly GG weapon from one. Not sure how that would be handled correctly, but I think quality is always better than quantity. Maybe the new guilds will take advantage of these lesser used weapons. I know that for one I've always tried to find perhaps a weapon that is better than a Longsword, but I always end up going back to it.

Runesmiths should be able to put to use hammers in a way that would make them viable. Like Domhan is able to break limbs.....and maybe do slightly more damage with them?

Adding a shield use to a Magic user, but only the smaller shield to help reduce damage.

Maybe in weapons.....making it so you can specialize in a specific weapon category that may see your damage increased by 5-10% when you use that item type? Though this is sort of like the idea of weapon focusing....but puts the control into the weapon holder rather than the smith.

Also:

I'd really like to introduce a way to melt down items to gain ores back. 10-20% of the initial ore cost. Some form of recrafting the ore from the molten? I am not sure....

[Dimetrius]

Maybe the new guilds will take advantage of these lesser used weapons. I know that for one I've always tried to find perhaps a weapon that is better than a Longsword, but I always end up going back to it.

Runesmiths should be able to put to use hammers in a way that would make them viable. Like Domhan is able to break limbs.....and maybe do slightly more damage with them?

I would love, love, LOVE a standardization to weapon types based on guild. As per my second post:

"Alternatively, bind warrior guilds to a preferred weapon type via Melee, which would force a spread across the board for high-end weapon demands. Legionnaires get the greatest effect from swords, Templars hammers, and Shadow Warriors axes."

If this were extended beyond the limits of Melee guilds, I would be even more pleased. Of course the only guilds that would be impacted beyond Melee guilds are the merchant-class, Runesmiths and Assassins (who already capitalize on a single weapon), but maybe something could be worked out along these lines.

I'd really like to introduce a way to melt down items to gain ores back. 10-20% of the initial ore cost. Some form of recrafting the ore from the molten? I am not sure....

If reclaiming the ores themselves isn't possible, I also like the idea of being able to smelt items and use the resulting molt and metal for smithing items requiring the same amount of ore or less. Perhaps a loss of two or so ores could be imposed, so smiths aren't just re-smelting the same item over and over for alterations to statistics.

[Dimetrius]

Alternatively, here's a completely different idea:

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS PROBABLY NOT GOING TO WORK BECAUSE IT'S EXTREMELY COMPLEX. STILL LOOKING FOR RESPONSES REGARDLESS IN ORDER TO GAUGE FUTURE POSSIBILITIES. THANK YOU.

Implement a refining/reworking system within Smithing, allowing the smith to melt down additional ore and work the resulting metal onto a pre-existing weapon, altering its statistics.

REFINE [weapon] [OFFENSE|DEFENSE|SPEED]

At the cost of the opposing statistics (5 for the sake of example), it would increase the selected statistic by a set amount (10, also example only) per ore utilized, up to a pre-defined maximum dependent on weapon type (thank you, Seig!).

So if there was a maximum of five refines available for a weapon, I could spin a rapier a few different ways:

67/72/160 -> starting statistics

5 offense refines, adding 50 to offense and reducing defense/speed by 25 each

67/72/160 -> 117/47/135

At this point, it seems a bit dramatic. But, let's say we wanted to add to both offense and defense.

3 offense refines (+30/-15/-15), 2 defense refines (-10/+20/-10)

67/72/160 -> 97/57/145 -> 87/77/135

Obviously that isn't the -best- course of action for a rapier, but it stands to prove that the intended strengths of the weapon are still intact with alterations. A rapier will always be strongest in speed, with low defense. Drawing the lines a bit closer together, however, allows the wielder to have more control over just how effective they want to be depending on their own uses.

Taking the same actions with a warhammer:

122/109/85 -> starting statistics

5 offense refines, adding 50 to offense and reducing defense/speed by 25 each

122/109/85 -> 172/84/60

3 offense refines (+30/-15/-15), 2 defense refines (-10/+20/-10)

122/109/85 -> 152/94/70 -> 142/104/60

For more fun...

2 offense refines (+20/-10/-10), 3 speed refines (-15/-15/+30)

122/109/85 -> 142/99/75 -> 127/84/105

Unlike the suggested figures with a weapon focus skill, it keeps a respectable ratio in regards to the original statistics, while giving just enough wiggle room to bring lesser-used weapons up to par with the standard for the more popular choices. Though numbers can always be tweaked, this is just purely for the sake of getting the examples out there!

Further possibilities:

Changing the way stats are reduced depending on which is being raised, to prevent gross imbalances (as with the first rapier example).

+10/-5/-5 would instead be +10/-7/-3

-5/+10/-5 would instead be -3/+10/-7

-5/-5/+10 would instead be -7/-3/+10

Thoughts?

[Dimetrius]

Wrapping up a few key points, for ease of browsing (they're also links, but unfortunately insist on opening in a new tab).

PROBLEM: Smiths can make a lot of things, but very rarely do people use a high number of them

SUGGESTIONS: Weapon focus skill, guild weapon specializations, limited manual statistic alteration

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS: Allow re-smelting, within limits

[Seig]

I reaaaaally like the refining/reworking system idea, though I just feel that in the end most people will go with a longsword or pike, because they already have the market locked up, and being able to change their stats would just make them even more appealing.

also, if this were to go into affect, there would need to be some major tweaking, lest we want OP assassins running around.

just from looking at one of my Kryllian Daggers, assuming 5 refines, and can't go below 10 in stats->

38/22/190 becomes --> 13/12/220 which is twenty points over the K'Raki dagger.

not sure how speed equals into many more stabs you get in, but it seems like a lot. I think filch told me the 10 points on the K'Raki equals an extra stab every ten stabs.

so yeah, assassins walking around with PvP daggers massacring everyone. People already don't like fighting us.

[Dimetrius]

So, propose some much-needed nerfs to your hilarious skills

Kidding. But, as I said about three times, the numbers are just examples. It's the theory behind the practice that I'm proposing, not the exact figures :b